The standard crap from the political right:
1.) All regulation is bad
2.) Any data which might force us to change our current method of doing business or behavior is a liberal conspiracy
3.) There is a giant press conspiracy to paint conservatives in a negative light which warrants my near paranoid methodology of interpreting press stories.
4.) "Socialism"
5.) Arm everybody with as many guns as possible -- and make sure the guns are as large as possible
The standard crap from the political left:
1.) Money is evil and those whose incomes are above $75,000/$100,000 per year are clearly in league with Satan.
2.) Wall Street causes all bad things
3.) Positive economic numbers are rigged; negative economic numbers are sacrosanct. As a corollary, all bullish economists are tools while bearish economists are completely trustworthy. Finally, take one bad economic number in a series of good numbers and claim it is a sign that the end of the world is upon us.
4.) All corporations are evil
5.) All market based solutions are evil, rigged and to be avoided at all costs
While I may have missed some of the popular themes, the point is clear: U.S. political dialog is not about data or solving problems. Instead, it's about repeating talking points and cramming events into preconceived perceptions. NDD has pointed out this is "confirmation bias," meaning we only seek out opinions that confirm our preconceptions, regardless of the lack of data "supporting" our opinion.
People on the right can remain in a sealed echo chamber of talk radio, Fox news and right wing blogs. People on the left can remain on the political left's blogs. Both of these methods of information delivery have been taken over by extremists who could care less about data and facts, instead focusing on pushing the latest "meme."
In short, the political blogs have become pure garbage. Assume that any economic analysis from any of them is -- at best -- deeply suspicious, and, at worst, pure crap.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
22 comments:
Time to call you out Bonddad.
While I agree with your general sentiment, you're being just as hyperbolic in your criticism as the people you criticize. None of what you said is "standard", instead it is what comes out of the mouths of the most extreme on the left and the right. Does anybody on the right think that ALL regulation is bad? No. Does anybody on the left think that money is evil? No.
Yes you are spot on in that we've drifted away from trying to really look at data and solving problems. But you're just adding fuel to the fire here. How is this blog post helping to solve the problem, other than giving you a chance to vent your own frustration?
I imagine this post is meant to be hyperbolic, however I know that I've definitely heard leading elected conservative officials espouse most if not all of the ideas in your "political right" list.
On the other hand, I've never heard any elected officials on the Left (not even the lone socialist, Bernie Sanders) nor their cohorts in the media ever come close to saying anything like what's in your "political left" list.
If you're only scraping the latter from the blogosphere's marginalia you can hardly qualify it as political dialogue. You're right to accuse them of engaging in extremist nonsense.
Just as you are engaging in false equivalents.
On the other hand, I've never heard any elected officials on the Left (not even the lone socialist, Bernie Sanders) nor their cohorts in the media ever come close to saying anything like what's in your "political left" list.
Only the right engages in bad and stupid behavior? Please.
There is some extremism and stupidity on both sides, but its far, far more prevalent and even celebrated by the right
There is some extremism and stupidity on both sides, but its far, far more prevalent and even celebrated by the right
No, it's equal on both sides.
All I can say is that on my little seen, and seldom read political blog is that I'm trying. I'm coming into Economics late in life. I started with reading Galbraith's book The Great Crash 1929, and moved on from there. I'm trying to write about the Economic concepts that I pick up along the way (mostly highlighting the work of other, more experienced hands at this), clarify them when I can, and explain where they are (at times) even counterintuitive. (Of course, I think it helps that I'm reading this blog at least once day).
I still have my point of view (I'm now and forever more a Keynesian). I'm a Liberal, but not a big believer in the concept of Corporate Evil (Corporate stupidity? Yeah, sure...) But I'm trying to get it right where I can, even if it goes against my ideological preconceived notions.
Isn't equating the right-wing extremism coming from all forms of media to the left-wing extremism only found in blogs a somewhat apple and orange thing?
I mean, I can agree with you on the blog vs blog thingy, but right-wing extremism is pervasive in that it comes via television, billboard and, especially, talk radio.
Including all media, it certainly does seem that left-wing extremism is hard to find, that way.
Taken as a basis for comparison, the points made are correct. Each side has its convinced members and no data will be acceptable that does not conform to their beliefs. "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
I find Bondad's blog to use multiple data points from credible, unbiased sources to substantiate the views of the poster.
Unfortunately on the TV and major media outlets, they offer infotainment that masquerades as news to raise their ratings to be able to charge higher rates for advertising. Truth and objective facts are not allowed!
In a comment in which I write that you are correct in accusing left-wing bloggers of extremism you accuse me of saying that "only the right engages in bad and stupid behaviour".
How childish. All I said was that with the people who matter in actual political dialogue, lawmakers and major media figures, the Right is actually guilty of saying the things you attribute to them whereas the Left is only guilty of it in irrelevant blog posts. That does not constitute a dialogue.
Just tell me which left-wing lawmakers, editorialists, or commentators are saying anything remotely resembling what's in your list and I will happily give you your sarcastic "Please".
Isn't equating the right-wing extremism coming from all forms of media to the left-wing extremism only found in blogs a somewhat apple and orange thing?
No, it's not. First, look at MSNBC -- a clearly left leaning news channel. Have they reported anything about the resurgence of US manufacturing over the last year and a half? How about the PCEs are now higher than their pre-recession levels on an inflation adjusted basis? Crickets.
How childish. All I said was that with the people who matter in actual political dialogue, lawmakers and major media figures, the Right is actually guilty of saying the things you attribute to them whereas the Left is only guilty of it in irrelevant blog posts. That does not constitute a dialogue.
I forgot that the political left in Congress is pure intentioned and intellectually honest while the right is inherently corrupt to its core.
Sorry, Charlie, that argument doesn't fly. Both sides engage in simplistic, oversimplified and bombastic rhetoric. To argue otherwise is to prove your own bias in the matter.
Bonddad is right but throws blame at the wrong people. The left and the right are circulating all of this nonsense and the public is lapping it up because the public is too ignorant and lazy to do the research to educate themselves on the issues. But to do that, one has to spend time and effort. Americans would prefer to play with their iPads, so, they let special interests dictate the debate. The American voter is responsible for this mess. If they would do what is necessayr to properly educate themselves on the issues and vote out the folks (on the left and the right) who are lying to them, the problem would go away. But the American voter is a lazy sack of sh** so we have the discourse we have.
apparently I'm more moderate than I thought, as I disagree with all of the 'political right' and mostly disagree with all the 'political left' points. I will say I agree with more 'moderate' points of the 'political left'
1.) Those whose incomes are above $75,000/$100,000 per year should pay higher taxes.
2.) Wall Street caused much of the last recession.
3.) Stats can be presented in a way that can deceive the people reading them if they are ill informed on how to read statistics.
4.) some corporations are evil - as are some individuals.
5.) some market based solutions are evil, particularly those that profit on other peoples misery.
Bonddad is right. The right is crazy, and a large chunk of the progressive left is letting their emotions, not even their ideology, lead them to wrong conclusions.
If you go on any of the big liberal blogs you will see people telling themselves day after day that:
1) It is impossible to make enough money to live a decent life
2) Anyone who does is somehow guilty of something
I am a leftist, and I read dailykos everyday and its infuriating.
They even get angry at Kos because he makes money from advertising non-profits on his blog sometimes.
They get mad at the guy that made the site and made huge strides for grassroots democratic organizing because he is rich because his blog was successful.
If you go on dailykos and talk about your work, or business you will only be accepted if your work is politically correct according to community standards.
The maddening thing about this for me, a leftist that loves DailyKos, is that these people are just being jealous and bitter. Their criticisms are not even based in solid left wing economic theory.
1.) Those whose incomes are above $75,000/$100,000 per year should pay higher taxes.
Did I say anything to the contrary? No. I said the left treats those who have high incomes as pariahs.
2.) Wall Street caused much of the last recession.
And did I say anything different? No. I did say that the left makes every problem caused by Wall Street -- high commodity prices? Speculators (ever hear of supply and demand)?
3.) Stats can be presented in a way that can deceive the people reading them if they are ill informed on how to read statistics.
Yes. Like when the left only cites negative statistics to say things suck, which they've been doing for the better part of a year. Manufacturing has rebounded over that time -- the same sector everyone says is dead and dying. Any mention of that on Crooks and Liars or Kos? How about the rise of American agriculture? Crickets.
4.) some corporations are evil - as are some individuals. Yes. But the vast majority are not. CEOs do not sign a pact with Satan. Instead, the vast majority are people who want to do the right thing.
5.) some market based solutions are evil, particularly those that profit on other peoples misery.
I agree to a point. For example, I've always been an advocate of single payer health care. But there is no way to avoid pain. Period. Some people make more money than you. Period. And the left hates to hear those basic facts of life.
I think that those that work hard to make more money than me deserve it. I don't agree with the "rob the rich and give to the poor" mentality that some advocate. Clearly those that make more should pay more in taxes but not like under Truman's rule (upper marginal rate was 91%). I also don't think we should go back to the robber baron era either.
The basic point of Bondads post is that you should suspect any economic analysis from any MSM outlet or politically oriented website/blog and get economic facts from unbiased sources.
bonddad -
"But the vast majority are not. CEOs do not sign a pact with Satan. Instead, the vast majority are people who want to do the right thing."
If you're a lawyer, surely you know better than this. If a publicly owned corporation actually exercises any sense of moderation, responsibility or "doing the right thing" beyond token efforts out of the PR budget, they will not only be seen as weak, they can get sued by their shareholders and lose. Even if that doesn't happen, the company that refuses to offshore will get buried by the company that's OK with it.
I won't call corporations evil, but American businesses are trending amoral to an absurd extreme. If McDonald's can get its beef from sustainably grown farms at moderate cost or from fields fertilized with the blood of children for slightly cheaper, if they DO NOT pick the latter they will get into trouble. Or at the very least, the purchaser will get fired. They don't have a choice. The only opposing forces originate from outside the company -- for example, activists who fight to ban using blood as fertilizer. This is the reality of the deflationary pressures on our economy. I'm in industry and I'm seeing machines peoples lives depend on starting to use cheap Chinese crap because to hell with "people who want to do the right thing". It's go cheap or go out of business. Frankly; I don't blame the guy making the tough decision; take a stand and you're just replaced. I got a front-row seat on this trainwreck and frankly it's downright depressing to watch.
Dragon child
Under your theory, the head of Costco should have been removed for increasing pay, which increases retention and lowers costs, Bill Gates would be removed for placing game rooms in the company to increase creativity, accounting firms would be dissolved for inventing flex pay etc..
First, notice that none of these facts ever gets mentioned in the left's discourse about business? Instead, we're told how evil CEOs are.
BTW -- all of these actions can clearly be justified by CEOs under the business judgment rule or the duty of care -- legal rules that I'm intimately familiar with because I use them everyday.
Dear anon --
Your second comment was deleted -- just like your first -- because it was the standard, moralizing left wing crap. They're worse than us, we're pure but the right is in league with Satan.
Here is but one example. Manufacturing has led the economy out of recession -- the same sector that is supposedly in its last throes. It's lead should be heralded from the left as a sign it's not dead. Yet, find one positive article on a single left wing blog on the topic in the last year and a half. I'm waiting.
Times up -- there isn't ONE.
As for the rigged econ numbers- - read anything by Bob Swern on of Crooks and Liars or you get the idea.
So please, spare me the "we're pure and they're not" crap.
Wow! I left for a week and missed a great pie fight.
My $0.02, bonddad is that you're pretty much on target with your assessment of the political right (Damn, I miss reasonable conservatives!), but this unabashed liberal takes issue with your assessment of the political left:
1.) Money is wonderful, but those whose incomes are above $250,000 per year are seriously undertaxed.
2.) Wall Street causes some bad things and should be much more tightly regulated.
3.) Positive economic numbers are only rarely rigged (Is the NAR housing data always reliable? No) and negative economic numbers are not sacrosanct. However, some bullish economists are, in fact, tools of the political right, while some bearish economists are, in fact, sometimes trustworthy. Finally, when looking for a harbinger, one bad economic number in a series of good numbers might be a sign that the end of the world is upon us, but ususally, it's not.
4.) All corporations are, by definition, amoral, and must be forced by regulation to act morally if that is what the People want. Corporations should be forced to adapt to what the People want for society... or be forced out of business. In business, "adapt or die" should apply to what the People want, too.
5.) Some market based solutions are dumb ideas, and are to be avoided at all costs. For example, the People relying for healthcare upon corporations that profit from denying healthcare is dumb, and their reliance should be transferred to the public sector or the not-for-profit sector.
Please tell me where this liberal is being unreasonable in his assessment.
Wow! I left for a week and missed a great pie fight.
My $0.02, bonddad is that you're pretty much on target with your assessment of the political right (damn, I miss reasonable conservatives!), but this unabashed liberal takes issue with your assessment of the political left:
1.) Money is wonderful, but those whose incomes are above $250,000 per year are seriously undertaxed.
2.) Wall Street causes some bad things and should be much more tightly regulated.
3.) Positive economic numbers are only rarely rigged (Is the NAR housing data always reliable? No) and negative economic numbers are not sacrosanct. However, some bullish economists are, in fact, tools of the political right, while some bearish economists are, in fact, sometimes trustworthy. Finally, when looking for a harbinger, one bad economic number in a series of good numbers might be a sign that the end of the world is upon us, but ususally, it's not.
4.) All corporations are, by definition, amoral, and must be forced by regulation to act morally if that is what the People want. Corporations should be forced to adapt to what the People want for society... or be forced out of business. In business, "adapt or die" should apply to what the People want, too.
5.) Some market based solutions are dumb ideas, and are to be avoided at all costs. For example, the People relying for healthcare upon corporations that profit from denying healthcare is dumb, and their reliance should be transferred to the public sector or the not-for-profit sector.
Please tell me where this liberal is being unreasonable in his assessment.
Ah I just saw you posted in response, to my comment you censored. Anyone who censors any comments is selling a point of view not objective facts. You don't see Naked Capitalism censoring the crazy libertarian commenters on it do you?
And mine was a perfectly reasonable comment. I just asked for high rec posts in Dkos that prove your claims about liberals. Not fringe commenters, but high rec posts . You didn't provide any links, but just say they are out there. Yeah, that's what creationists say too when asked for evidence.
Then you go make up shit about what I said, as if I don't know what I said. When did I say even remotely close to the left is pure? I even conceded that I don't usually hear positive things about manufacturing in left wing blogs. The ISM report, including the latest shows manufacturing is indeed going up. But the rest of the 4 claims are completely off base , otherwise provide links please.
But even for claim 3) where did any popular blogger say anything like this "Positive economic numbers are rigged; negative economic numbers are sacrosanct". Not fringe commenters, but bloggers. I saw NDD's Mar 4 post, and in an all new low you posted some commenters on there to confirm your bias that the left is just like the right. You are using the same tactics as Bill O'Reilly doesn't that tell you something? Some bloggers don't censor their commenters, what a concept.
You sir, are the one with the confirmation bias, making moralizing relativistic arguments (that the left is just like the right).
I have removed this blog from my bookmarks, and I have unrecommended the blog to those I previously recommended. I will stick with Calculated Risk & Naked Capitalism for objective facts.
My Original Comment
I'm not clear why my comment I submitted 2 days ago as anonymous was not accepted. So I will post again with some adds...
I am a long time reader, never commented before, but your post has nothing to do with objective facts. For example, this comment #14 you have quite a blanket statement. You said "No. I said the left treats those who have high incomes as pariahs". How about Keith Olbermann then, is he pariah to the left? How about Sen. Bernie Sanders then? I am one of those 100k plus people too. Last I checked, my liberal beliefs don't make me hate myself.
The left in general only dislike those rich who make themselves richer at the expense of society, far above and beyond any value they may add to society.
As other have said this post in general is a giant false equivalency. Much of what you say about the right is mainstream, and many of them are even in power. While people on the left who say these things may exist, but I have never even heard of anybody saying anything . And this despite me visiting Dkos frequently.
Can you provide links to those on left saying these things for each bullet point? Not fringe elements, I would like to see those from Dkos with high recs, that say such things. I remember your days posting at DKos, and your certainly got high recs then. Would they have recd you if they didn't agree with your assertions? Sure there are fringe people everywhere who don't care about facts that much, but only in the modern right are they mainstream.
P.S: I will concede 3) partly some liberals do tend to ignore any good news in the economy. But I don't know of anyone who said "Positive economic numbers are rigged; negative economic numbers are sacrosanct".
I just noticed. Thanks for not censoring my last comment. I will add the site back to my bookmarks :) Your site is a pretty good resource, but I hope you continue to stick with objective facts.
Post a Comment